Pender Pals Takes On GDC

(This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.)

TB: Let’s start with your initial interest in gaming. When did you first fall in love with videogames? When did you know you wanted make your own? 

OB: I first got that sense of amazement from a game staying up late and peeking into the living room at my brother playing Halo 3. Absorbing the music and visuals was one of the most mesmerizing experiences of my life. Of course, I wasn’t old enough to play it yet, so I made paper action figures of all the characters. Then I could play it, and I played it a lot.

NS: I’m a terrible game player because I have no agility or hand eye coordination or ability to multitask, but I’ve always been intrigued by games as a form of storytelling. Growing up, I’d sit next to my older brother as he gamed in our dad’s old leather chair. We’d watch let’s plays together–Pewdiepie and Markiplier. 

A lot of those games were story-based with impactful lessons. That made me want to create my own stories, ones you could interact with and have a human experience. 

TB: How did you settle on game design as a career path?

OB: In high school, I was in the theater department. I told myself, “I’m gonna become an actor… a thespian.”  Eventually I realized I needed a lane shift. I asked myself, “What do I like doing?” Art, writing, storytelling. Game design would allow me to develop all those skills, without having to commit to a single art form. If I decided, “Yeah, I’m a good enough 2D artist–might as well do only that for the rest of my life,” I think I’d lose the fun. 

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NS: I definitely agree with that. In high school, I was very artistic, but I was afraid to pursue art exclusively. I didn’t want to become a starving artist. My parents were very supportive and pushed me to pursue something creative. They discovered the game design program at UC Santa Cruz while I was looking for majors. The program’s large, technical skillset forces you to learn multiple different disciplines, while also presenting opportunities to hone specific skills. 

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TB: At UCSC, you got practice assembling your own teams to work on original projects. How did that collaborative environment prepare you for the leadership role you’ve stepped into now?

NS: A lot of people choose our major because they like playing games. But that doesn’t necessarily amount to the ability to create games. You need strong collaborative skills: to take and deliver critique, to work with people whose personalities don’t mesh with yours. That’s difficult in a school setting, where there’s no monetary incentive to get along. 

Early on, I dealt with a lot of sexism from the men on my teams. It was super uncomfortable and made me very angry. But it also taught me to hold onto people who were strong collaborators and brought something good to their projects. Our first quarter, I watched Owen present a sick-ass game he’d made with his group. I was like, “HIM. I’m gonna work with him.” When it was time to create new teams, I beelined towards Owen and some others, and was like “You, you, and you. Want to be on a team? Great, c’mere!” 

And that’s how I forced Owen to be my friend. 

TB: Owen, what about you?

OB: Entering college, I just wanted to join other peoples’ projects and learn from them. I never felt good enough to have ideas of my own. Eventually I realized that if I wanted something to happen, I had to do it myself. After our team completed its first game, Marianas Trek, everyone was sitting around like, “Sigh, we want to do another project together, but we don’t have any ideas.” And I was like “Well–*raises finger*–I have an idea.” 

NS: That was one of the first times I saw Owen’s potential for leadership. Everyone gravitated towards him and had innate trust in his vision. Their excitement told me the project–which turned out to be Sherman’s Quest–could grow into something big. 

TB: Owen, is it true Sherman’s Quest was an idea from your childhood?

OB: *Laughs* That’s true. My friend and I were talking about a game he was playing, and I mentioned, “Oh that game’s based on Sherman’s Quest, for the Dreamcast. It has over four levels.”

He’s like, “What the hell’s Sherman’s Quest?”

I’m like, “It has over four levels.”

He’s like, “I don’t care.”

I’m like, “It’s a real game. You can look it up. It has over four levels.” 

He looked it up and couldn’t find it. I’m like, “Well, it’s pretty rare.”

TB: And how did it feel relinquishing control of such an old idea to your peers and watching them make Sherman’s Quest their own?

OB: Leaders of volunteer projects often pitch very specific, personal ideas and ask their for teammates help in realizing that vision. To me, that’s doing it for the wrong reason. When you start designing a game with a group of people, it stops being your thing. It becomes everyone’s thing.  In my initial pitch presentation, I included a slide titled: “What needs to stay?” The answer: “Nothing!” I wanted my teammates to put their own ideas into Sherman’s Quest. 

TB: Talk to me about the period after you graduated from UCSC. At that crossroads, when you had the whole world open to you, what made you decide, “We need to finish this game”?

NS: A 10-week development cycle is insanely quick, so we didn’t get to fully execute our initial vision. But we ended the year on a high note when Sherman’s Quest won the community choice award at UCSC’s Game Awards. There, we connected with a lot of industry professionals. One said he was impressed by what we’d created and that, if we continued polishing our game, he’d do his best to put it in front of investors. That was super exciting, because the industry is in a real rough spot.

OB: Yeah. The way the winds were blowing, we all knew we weren’t getting any jobs. For those of us who didn’t have much under our belt besides a degree, we realized continuing to work on Sherman’s Quest might be our best option. 

TB: As you mentioned, the games industry not a welcoming place for new developers. How have you managed to set aside your concerns about the future and focus on the work in front of you?

NS: If Owen and I lose focus, it affects all the people depending on us for leadership. But showing up hasn’t been a huge challenge. Every time I call with another team member, their passion reminds me how much I care about this project.  

OB: Every person on this team is someone I enjoy working with. The dream is to create a long-term home for the people we care about and continue making cool things. Even if we don’t get there, it’s a goal I strive for. 

TB: I’m hearing a lot of love for the people at Pender Pals’ Games. How has the caring, nurturing environment you’ve attempted to cultivate affected the development of Sherman’s Quest?

NS: Owen and I have continually emphasized to the team that whatever challenges or time constraints pop up, we’ll be understanding so long us as you communicate with us. We’ve had team members tell us they can’t show up in the way we’re expecting them to. That can be stressful to admit, especially to your producers.  To be met with, “That’s okay. You tried your best, and we’re here to support you,” as opposed to a punishment, makes people want to show up down the line. We’re all in the same position. This is a volunteer project. We’re not getting paid. We’re doing it to learn and because we care about it. 

TB: You each have your own artistic influences, senses of humor, and communication styles. We’ve talked about leading a team of people, but what have you learned about working together as leaders?

NS: Owen has always made clear to me that he’s willing to meet in the middle, to find a compromise. There are moments I’ve forgotten that and held onto something, which is never the right move. Every time I talk to him about an interpersonal issue or our vision for the team, he’s made it feel safe and comfortable. I feel extremely lucky to have that in a partner. I’m still learning to offer that to him as gracefully as he does for me. But our belief in constant communication has been the biggest factor in our growth as producers.

OB: It’s always a good idea to divide the work when there’s a lot of work to do. But it’s equally important to come back together at the end of the day and talk about what’s been going on and what the other person needs to know. The big thing is communicating before and after important decisions, plus figuring out what those are and what they aren’t. Sometimes it’s a simple problem I can fix on my end. Other times it’s a big development change that might not directly impact Natalie, but is still important to bring up. There are things I’m not entirely the best at, like keeping the team hyped. I feel like I let the air out of the balloon, but Natalie always brings a pump, shall we say. 

TB: Lastly, I want to talk about Sherman’s Quest. What are you most excited for players to experience?

NS: The story! I’m so excited for people to play through the dialogue and meet the different characters. That’s where so much personality and fun comes through in small world games, because a lot of effort has to be put into making the characters interesting. I’m so hyped to watch players react to different dialogue options and narrative choices in playtesting. I’m gonna be like, “Ahh! They thought that was funny! Y-eah!"

OB: I’m excited to see people explore the world, to mess around in the space we’ve created. And to see their reactions to the bosses, puzzles, and moments later in the game. I want to watch people realize, “Wow, there’s so much more here than I thought.”